proof you need a catch can (or something!) - Chevy Colorado & GMC Canyon
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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proof you need a catch can (or something!)

Ok, I installed my catch can and removed my intake to inspect the valves. Please keep in mind this vehicle has only 5300 miles on it! I was shocked at how much crust and gunk was on the valves. It wasn't bad enough that I decided to clean them but it sure will be soon! 5300 miles.......I have some pretty good pics. When I pulled the intake there was oil everywhere from the intake. I check very closely and I would estimate 95% or more of it is from the PVC side to the intake (not the vent side) there was a tiny amount of soot on the throttle body. In the pics the worst and blackest ones were the two rear-most ports. Actually had wet looking gunk on them. The rest looked dry but still had coke on them. It reminded me of tearing down an engine that has 100k or more on it. 5300 miles people. Something has to be done about this. I am positive GM and every other car maker could make a sort of catch can that can drain oil somehow back into the engine. Or at least make one that is easy to service at oil change time. Anyway let me get some pics on here. Oh, also, I have no idea what kind of oil is in this truck. I bought it used from a chevy dealer and it has always belonged to a chevy dealer (looks like it was dealer trade a couple times from the car fax). After I finish here and take a lunch break I am going to change the oil and put a full synthetic like Mobil one in it. Oh and for the record, you must use your PCV tube because ( @GDI ) there is no barb to put the hose on at the intake. I cut it and if I need it back to stock I will probably just splice it together with a small piece of 3/8 hose or get a new PVC tube. I have pics of that stuff too (can install).
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Scary, evil, black, warranty voiding catch can from the devil

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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, I installed my catch can and removed my intake to inspect the valves. Please keep in mind this vehicle has only 5300 miles on it! I was shocked at how much crust and gunk was on the valves. It wasn't bad enough that I decided to clean them but it sure will be soon! 5300 miles.......I have some pretty good pics. When I pulled the intake there was oil everywhere from the intake. I check very closely and I would estimate 95% or more of it is from the PVC side to the intake (not the vent side) there was a tiny amount of soot on the throttle body. In the pics the worst and blackest ones were the two rear-most ports. Actually had wet looking gunk on them. The rest looked dry but still had coke on them. It reminded me of tearing down an engine that has 100k or more on it. 5300 miles people. Something has to be done about this. I am positive GM and every other car maker could make a sort of catch can that can drain oil somehow back into the engine. Or at least make one that is easy to service at oil change time. Anyway let me get some pics on here. Oh, also, I have no idea what kind of oil is in this truck. I bought it used from a chevy dealer and it has always belonged to a chevy dealer (looks like it was dealer trade a couple times from the car fax). After I finish here and take a lunch break I am going to change the oil and put a full synthetic like Mobil one in it. Oh and for the record, you must use your PCV tube because ( @GDI ) there is no barb to put the hose on at the intake. I cut it and if I need it back to stock I will probably just splice it together with a small piece of 3/8 hose or get a new PVC tube. I have pics of that stuff too (can install).
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Scary, evil, black, warranty voiding catch can from the devil

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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 06:15 PM
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What kind of issues were you experiencing that made you want to look at your valves? What exactly is so concerning about these pictures? Have you ever taken apart and inspected a carbureted engine? Do you think GM will be taking apart a lot of LFX engines to fix them under 100k mile warranty (in the years that they offered 100k powertrain)?
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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What kind of issues were you experiencing that made you want to look at your valves? What exactly is so concerning about these pictures? Have you ever taken apart and inspected a carbureted engine? Do you think GM will be taking apart a lot of LFX engines to fix them under 100k mile warranty (in the years that they offered 100k powertrain)?
No issues, just curiosity. After reading about the catch stuff I decided to install one and since the intake is easy to remove I had a peek. The problem is (and I know it's hard to see in the pics) the gunk that builds on the back of the intake valves on GDI engines comes fast and soon. That is the reason for the catch can. see Intake valve cleaning results and learn from my mistake . Lots of good info there. I just hope the catch can works.

No, I don't think GM will be fixing a lot of these engines because they won't have a miss, they will just be gutless and get crappy mileage. It would be very hard to "make" them do anything I would think. As far as 100K warranty I think it is only 5 year/ 60K now, right? It will probably make it that far without missing. Even so I wonder if they can say it isn't a "failure" of any part? Blame it on bad gas or something you know? It sure wouldn't surprise me if they did. Also, good luck to the guys that put a ton of mileage on a vehicle. Does anyone on here have a high mileage LFX that can tell us how its doing? I would love to know. But either way its not the end of the world, they can be cleaned, its just expensive and messy is all.

As far as carbureted it has been so very long I honestly don't remember what they looked like. I do know they have fuel upsteam of the intake valves unlike the GDI that will help them stay clean. No? Anyway, the catch can has my vote for sure.

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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 02:01 AM
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The issue w/ DI gasser engines right there.

I had the intake off my '08 Vette the other day w/ 19K miles and the valves were literally as new. Perfectly clean.

Quite the difference.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 11:53 AM
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OK not that someone would do it because it is not ethically and environmentally correct,,
Would there be a way to vent our system with out using a catch can , maybe using small KN vent filters at the end of the hoses to stop outside particles from getting in the system but also letting the oil mist escape into atmosphere??

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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 02:57 PM
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That looks like a clean setup, which brand catch can did you get?

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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
The issue w/ DI gasser engines right there.

I had the intake off my '08 Vette the other day w/ 19K miles and the valves were literally as new. Perfectly clean.

Quite the difference.
@Suns_PSD what is the set-up on the Vette, is that pre DPI, does it have EFI?

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OK not that someone would do it because it is not ethically and environmentally correct,,
Would there be a way to vent our system with out using a catch can , maybe using small KN vent filters at the end of the hoses to stop outside particles from getting in the system but also letting the oil mist escape into atmosphere??
That would probably just make a mess of oil mist wherever the vent exits on the vehicle?

I've wondered about borrowing a trick that Drag Racers use & evacuating the oil by plumbing it into the exhaust. Although that set-up might create to much vacuum, but I'm pretty sure the vacuum could be controlled. It also could set off O2 or other sensors depending on where it enters the exhaust.
Never really seriously considered it just thought about it in passing, maybe I'm missing something obvious?

Crankcase Evacuation Systems


@JScottm I appreciate the effort you did to do this & post the pics, much better than just speculation, you should take it off in another 5 or 10K & see what it looks like the.
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
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That looks like a clean setup, which brand catch can did you get?
The original Elite. It's was $120 I think. Seems expensive but it really is a nice piece of aluminum. I would have preferred a unit that was see-thru and they are out there but Elite has a good rep so I just got it. the bracket that came with it fit perfectly right there by the horns. Literally took 5 minutes or less to mount it using that smaller existing bolt on the truck. Super simple.

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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@Suns_PSD what is the set-up on the Vette, is that pre DPI, does it have EFI?



That would probably just make a mess of oil mist wherever the vent exits on the vehicle?

I've wondered about borrowing a trick that Drag Racers use & evacuating the oil by plumbing it into the exhaust. Although that set-up might create to much vacuum, but I'm pretty sure the vacuum could be controlled. It also could set off O2 or other sensors depending on where it enters the exhaust.
Never really seriously considered it just thought about it in passing, maybe I'm missing something obvious?

Crankcase Evacuation Systems

MOROSO CRANKCASE EVACUATION - I put it to the test!!

@JScottm I appreciate the effort you did to do this & post the pics, much better than just speculation, you should take it off in another 5 or 10K & see what it looks like the.
.
I plan on taking it off again in about 10K or so to look again. I would like to clean them but it sure looks like it will be a messy project.
About plumbing it to the exhaust, that would foul the O2 and cat for sure. Not good.

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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 06:25 PM
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Jscott, at this level, there will be little disruption in the airflow, but it is a great example of what most would see if they did the same. Only run full syn from here on out.

You can see as it builds, how the valve guide scrapes it down into a "mushroom" of it. That is where the wear starts first, is the guide. By 30-40k most we spec out show beyond acceptable tolerances. This also is not noticeable to most as it really only shows at high RPM's as the valves become unstable a bit. The first symptoms as far as most consumers are not real evident until 40-60k miles when random misfires from the unequal A/F ratio between cylinders, and a increasing hesitation from idle to accelerating is what those really in tune with their vehicle notice, but most will dismiss that as their imagination. By then, if the deal supplied syn blend oil is used, timing chain stretch and wear (the tensioner bores wear and allow pressure to bleed past also contributing to jumping a few teeth of timing on one or more of the camshafts. The real issues are caused by the premature wear from excessive raw fuel dilution and excessive abrasive particulate matter. That is where these dual evacuation suction source catchcans come into play. By removing most of these before they have a chance to settle into the oil. It enters as a gas or mist past the rings, so flushing and evacuating these before they mix is key.

Let's see more of these as examples at different miles for all to get an idea on average coking rates.

Good work!!
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 06:45 PM
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@GDI are you suggesting that if one uses GM Dexos1 there's a good chance they will run into timing chain problems around the 40-60k mile mark?

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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-13-2016, 12:46 PM
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@GDI are you suggesting that if one uses GM Dexos1 there's a good chance they will run into timing chain problems around the 40-60k mile mark?

Yes. Here is a Google search to show how prevalent it is:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...g+chain+issues

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article...g-timing-chain

Nissan Timing Chain Tensioning System Problems

We have been studying these in depth since 2008 when GM introduced the LLT version of the 3.6L engine, and it is not the design of the chains as we see wear to the tensioners as well as the chains themselves, and almost all premature failures the owner had used the deal/owners manual oil recommendation. In the few that the owner drained the factory fill by 500 miles or so and only used a full synthetic, we have seen no significant wear issues, so we have attributed this to the raw fuel dilution of the oil and the high abrasive particulate content.

Think about these engines compared to the LS family of V8's that were only to run M1 full synthetic. These rev higher, have far more critical moving pasts, and far more of them dependent on oiling and proper oil pressure being maintained, yet the V6, considered an "economy" choice is recommended to use the cheap syn blend. Compared to a full syn at the same miles of use, viscosity in both ranges measured is far less when run in a GDI engine than a full syn at the same interval. The syn oil leaves no sludge. That is caused by the higher heat ranges these engines run internally that breaks down the conventional portion of the blend. Now, the DEXOS rating standard by GM is even stricter than API, but these engines, after initial ring seating, (and this is the best method:



drain that factory fill full of assembly debris and filings from break-in and ONLY run a full synthetic. We also see the internal parts have no or little discoloration on them from deposits unlike the blend leaves.

The reason the small engines are recommended to use cheaper oil, and lower octane fuel (even though at 11.5:1 compression ratio 93 makes a good improvement) is purely for marketing to appeal to the budget minded owner, or potential buyer. If the same slot vehicle offered by the competition if GM stated to use 91/93 octane and full syn, that would be jumped all over like Ford using lightweight aluminum in the truck beds VS heavier and cheaper steel.

Rarely is what is best for a engine/vehicle is inline with what is the most effective for marketing to a certain demographic.

Having spent time in research facilities with dyno cells full of engines run to certain hours and then tore down and inspected, it is easy to see the advantages of using a full syn (and yes, M1 is a great oil, but there are better IMHO) vs a dealer pushed blend. These are things the consumer generally never thinks of though. Having these forums gives those looking to learn and gain knowledge a place to do so, but there will always be detractors that wish to mislead or confuse for whatever reason they may have.
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:04 PM
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Quick note here. At my last oil change I requested full synthetic rather than a blend. My service adviser told me that they don't use the blends anymore for my truck. Full synthetic is all they use now according to him. No idea if that is a GM directive or a decision by the dealer or if he was BSing me which I doubt since they have been pretty good about anything I asked for. Probably will stop using the dealer from here on out for changes anyway.

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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:22 PM
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I still think that there is a way to just vent the oil crankcase hose to the outside air, EPA be damned. Cap it with an oil filter to prevent anything from going back in, and if you don't want it dripping onto the ground, put it inside some sort of plastic box that you can check and drain from time to time.

As long as the crank case can vent, I don't see why this would be an issue. You wouldn't be blocking it off or anything...
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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 04:48 PM
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Yes, you could, certainly. It just won't purge as thoroughly. The particulates, fuel, and water in the vapors will be able to settle out into the crank case more readily.

Think about your bathroom. You stink it up really good, and walk away, and the stink will dissipate and go away. The bathroom is "vented", i.e not airtight. But you'll notice the stink in adjacent rooms. Think of this as the particulates/fuel/water settling out, causing contamination.

But if you turn the fan on, it clears out the bathroom much faster, without the contaminants "settling out" into the adjacent rooms. This is what your PCV does. Provides positive evacuation, rather than just simple venting.

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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 05:09 PM
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Regarding crank venting. I came from the ford ST community. Many guys running cans and vents. They have oil fill caps that are actually vent filters.

Following this as I still can't decide. Truck was used and has 35k. I already get a stumble at idle some times....

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 06:00 PM
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Yes, you could, certainly. It just won't purge as thoroughly. The particulates, fuel, and water in the vapors will be able to settle out into the crank case more readily.

Think about your bathroom. You stink it up really good, and walk away, and the stink will dissipate and go away. The bathroom is "vented", i.e not airtight. But you'll notice the stink in adjacent rooms. Think of this as the particulates/fuel/water settling out, causing contamination.

But if you turn the fan on, it clears out the bathroom much faster, without the contaminants "settling out" into the adjacent rooms. This is what your PCV does. Provides positive evacuation, rather than just simple venting.

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100% accurate. Breathers and venting went out in the 1960's. Only uninformed do it today not realizing that they are sacrificing the engine in doing so. Very familiar with imports and sport compacts not understanding this any better than most domestic tuner shops. They are only thinking of pressure, and nothing else. And the proper evac system for a turbo provides evacuation suction at all times never allowing pressure to build. You MUST remove the contaminates that are already overloading the engine oil of GDI engines and prematurely wearing everything internal relying on the oil for protection. Venting won't blow the engine up right away, it is cumulative so most assume it is fine. Tons of reasons to never do this as your keeping pressure in the crankcase at all times will running, and that causes issues from leaks and ring flutter/ring sealing issues compounding blow-by even more.

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Regarding crank venting. I came from the ford ST community. Many guys running cans and vents. They have oil fill caps that are actually vent filters.

Following this as I still can't decide. Truck was used and has 35k. I already get a stumble at idle some times....

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At 35k, remove the intake manifold and do a manual valve cleaning....you will not believe the difference when you drive it afterwards. Lot's of before and after dyno's showing from 5-30 plus whp is restored after a cleaning done properly. There are vendors that will sell anything there is a demand for, good or bad for the engine. Breathers are always bad if used to vent.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 06:43 PM
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At 35k, remove the intake manifold and do a manual valve cleaning....you will not believe the difference when you drive it afterwards. Lot's of before and after dyno's showing from 5-30 plus whp is restored after a cleaning done properly. There are vendors that will sell anything there is a demand for, good or bad for the engine. Breathers are always bad if used to vent.
I will some day. I'm not gonna do a catch can until I do a cleaning. Right now I don't have time. Maybe late this summer. Ill have to find a how to. No idea how to do this. Can you link me to it? I'm fairly confident in my ability around cars. Goal is probably do it this summer or by 50k. Am I risking "damage" or just carbon build up?

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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 06:53 PM
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I would do the catch can now. The carbon buildup is one symptom/indicator of cumulative damage that is currently occurring.

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