"The diesel is cheaper in the long run" myth debunked - Page 5 - Chevy Colorado & GMC Canyon
 180Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #81 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 7,375
One of the plus items I discussed with my V6 Canyon over the Wrangler I was driving is that I have to gas up probably one less time a month at least, maybe even 2 less times per month. That saves me a half hour a month, at least, getting into a station, fueling up, and getting back on the road. Based on the loaded labor rate I charge, that saves me a good chunk of change. If I was driving the diesel, I would probably get to subtract at least one more stop per month.

Where is that calculated into the costs?

Think about if you have a workcrew, 4 workers in a crew cab, and you are able to cut out 30-60 minutes per month of idle time for 4 workers. How much did that just save you in costs? (In reality, that fuel stop drags into a snack & bathroom break, probably the work crew is out of service for easily 30 minutes on each stop. )

Quit trying to analyze the $$$ associated with each person. Figure out what makes sense for you, what you need first, want second, to drive, and just do it without looking at the guy next to you and trying to figure a way to attack his choices in vehicles. If it works for him, more power to him. My truck works for me. And I mean that in more ways than just it fits my lifestyle, it is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Now, these guys who jack up their vehicles till they have 2 foot of clearance underneath them or lower their vehicle till they can't drive over a ham sandwich without dragging bottom, or who install an exhaust that makes a F15 Fighter Plane seem quiet, those are the guys we should be giving a hard time...

2015 Canyon SLT, Copper Red, 2WD, CC, SB, V6, Tow, blk leather, factory spray liner, safety pkg, generic roll up bed cover.
CaryBosse is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #82 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 01:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaryBosse View Post
One of the plus items I discussed with my V6 Canyon over the Wrangler I was driving is that I have to gas up probably one less time a month at least, maybe even 2 less times per month. That saves me a half hour a month, at least, getting into a station, fueling up, and getting back on the road. Based on the loaded labor rate I charge, that saves me a good chunk of change. If I was driving the diesel, I would probably get to subtract at least one more stop per month.

Where is that calculated into the costs?

Think about if you have a workcrew, 4 workers in a crew cab, and you are able to cut out 30-60 minutes per month of idle time for 4 workers. How much did that just save you in costs? (In reality, that fuel stop drags into a snack & bathroom break, probably the work crew is out of service for easily 30 minutes on each stop. )

Quit trying to analyze the $$$ associated with each person. Figure out what makes sense for you, what you need first, want second, to drive, and just do it without looking at the guy next to you and trying to figure a way to attack his choices in vehicles. If it works for him, more power to him. My truck works for me. And I mean that in more ways than just it fits my lifestyle, it is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Now, these guys who jack up their vehicles till they have 2 foot of clearance underneath them or lower their vehicle till they can't drive over a ham sandwich without dragging bottom, or who install an exhaust that makes a F15 Fighter Plane seem quiet, those are the guys we should be giving a hard time...
Dang, I am losing so hard in this conversation between lowering and being a diesel owner I don't condone violence against ham sandwiches though


Nicolas_p likes this.

2016 CCSB Duramax - 226hp/458tq
Tuned by Innovative Diesel

onebaddz is offline  
post #83 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 03:33 PM
Senior Member
 
ssgjurista's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calcium, NY
Posts: 8,347
In a Homer Sinpson voice. Mmm.........ham sandwich. :)

"Brownstone Bumblebee" 2016 Diesel Colorado Z71 CCSB 4X4, Brownstone Metallic
HPD and Provent 200 Catch Cans, Amsoil Fluids, MetalMan Front Differential, Engine Oil Pan, & Steering Motor Skid Plate, Undercover Swing Cases
Say No! to Wheelers's Offroad!

"I respect everyone's opinion, no matter how wrong it may be."
ssgjurista is offline  
 
post #84 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 04:12 PM
Senior Member
 
BeastStarr68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Concord NC
Posts: 529
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaryBosse View Post
One of the plus items I discussed with my V6 Canyon over the Wrangler I was driving is that I have to gas up probably one less time a month at least, maybe even 2 less times per month. That saves me a half hour a month, at least, getting into a station, fueling up, and getting back on the road. Based on the loaded labor rate I charge, that saves me a good chunk of change. If I was driving the diesel, I would probably get to subtract at least one more stop per month.

Where is that calculated into the costs?

Think about if you have a workcrew, 4 workers in a crew cab, and you are able to cut out 30-60 minutes per month of idle time for 4 workers. How much did that just save you in costs? (In reality, that fuel stop drags into a snack & bathroom break, probably the work crew is out of service for easily 30 minutes on each stop. )

Quit trying to analyze the $$$ associated with each person. Figure out what makes sense for you, what you need first, want second, to drive, and just do it without looking at the guy next to you and trying to figure a way to attack his choices in vehicles. If it works for him, more power to him. My truck works for me. And I mean that in more ways than just it fits my lifestyle, it is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Now, these guys who jack up their vehicles till they have 2 foot of clearance underneath them or lower their vehicle till they can't drive over a ham sandwich without dragging bottom, or who install an exhaust that makes a F15 Fighter Plane seem quiet, those are the guys we should be giving a hard time...
Funny! To each their own I guess. I never understood jacking up trucks or lowering them either. I can see doing it to a truck you bought as a weekend toy that did not cost very much...something to take mudding or other off roading. I would not want to CLIMB up into my truck daily. Guess allot of folks want to be big rig drivers and this is how they get their fix.

2017 GMC Canyon All Terrain X Quick Silver Metallic
BeastStarr68 is offline  
post #85 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 09:40 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastStarr68 View Post
Funny! To each their own I guess. I never understood jacking up trucks or lowering them either. I can see doing it to a truck you bought as a weekend toy that did not cost very much...something to take mudding or other off roading. I would not want to CLIMB up into my truck daily. Guess allot of folks want to be big rig drivers and this is how they get their fix.
I'm with you on this one. My jacked up CJ7 was a weekender only. Couple things with big lifts, primarily for me it's getting stuff in and out of the bed. Lifting heavy stuff up another 6 inches sucks. The higher center of gravity also makes the truck feel LESS stable off road. Don't get me wrong, I love the way a lifted truck looks, but it's just not practical if you need the everyday utility.
CaryBosse likes this.

2016 Colorado Duramax Z71 Trailboss
NormWild is offline  
post #86 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 09:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Motown
Posts: 451
To each their own. It seems to me people who go with monster lifts or ham sandwich slams didn't really buy their truck because the NEED at truck, they bought a truck because the WANT a truck. So adversely affecting the way the truck handles while hauling and towing matters not. If it makes them happy, why not? :)
Esoxchaser is offline  
post #87 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 10:28 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esoxchaser View Post
To each their own. It seems to me people who go with monster lifts or ham sandwich slams didn't really buy their truck because the NEED at truck, they bought a truck because the WANT a truck. So adversely affecting the way the truck handles while hauling and towing matters not. If it makes them happy, why not? :)
You are completely correct. I could use a truck but never actually needed one. Since my needs were so limited it was easy enough to just haul a small trailer with my TBSS to pick up supplies for any big projects. A midsize truck makes it a LOT easier to justify a truck when you don't need one.

2016 CCSB Duramax - 226hp/458tq
Tuned by Innovative Diesel

onebaddz is offline  
post #88 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 12:21 PM
Senior Member
 
battousai2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Goodyear, AZ
Posts: 666
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Conway View Post
Not diesels, they have their uses. More biased against the owners that think their diesel is the best thing since sliced bread, especially when most of them just buy them for the glamour of saying "I have a diesel" who have nothing better to do with their money and don't use them for their intended purpose. Then they will try to sell them in 20 years for double its KBB value just because it is a diesel. And I've seen plenty of 3.6s go 250k without skipping a beat. Don't cheap out on oil and use good gas and your valves will be fine. As for spark plugs, if you're moderately competent with a wrench you can do them for under $20. And the timing chain issue with the 3.6 has long since been resolved.

Plenty of DI engines do go 200K without issue these days but rarely will they go 300-400K that diesels will routinely go without major overhaul. Fuel prices vary widely and fluctuate. Some pay less for diesel than regular unleaded. Some 3.6L owners have needed to use 91 octane to run properly. Your spark plug point is valid but the same can be said for the diesel fuel filter. They are available for $13 to $35 online and take 10 minutes to change... faster and easier than any spark plug job. As others have stated, you buy what you want. The diesel owners here really don't talk to gasser owners telling them their stuff is better. They may state the reasons they bought what they did but this site is pretty good in that regard. Sorry that you got crap from someone but the responses you got did not warrant your subsequent hating of diesel owners. Relax and enjoy what you bought
saytanicmechanic likes this.

2016 Canyon, Duramax, All-Terrain, Cyber Grey, Crew Cab, Short Bed, 4x4, Sprayed on Bedliner, RC off road steps, Autospring 2.5 lift.
battousai2000 is offline  
post #89 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 12:31 PM
Senior Member
 
DiNoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 755
Garage
I can comment on living with the V6 and the diesel because I have owned both. I bought a '15 with the V6 in November, 2014 and put about 33k miles on it. The engine was a nightmare. I bitched up a storm about the truck on these forums. After 36 cumulative days in the shop and never getting the performance and MPG drop problems fixed, I decided to cut my losses. GM refused to buy it back and a Lemon Law attorney wasn't confident that I had a case. I put in a dealer order for the Duramax and took delivery last February.

As bad as the V6 was, the Duramax has been the complete opposite. The truck has been fantastic through 23k miles (knock on wood!) and I consistently get over 575 miles per tank. As someone else stated, it is very pleasing only having to fuel up every 7 or 8 days. Before dumping my V6, my mileage had dropped to 16 mpg and I was gassing up twice per week. In California, diesel fuel is equal to or less than regular, so the savings with the huge mpg difference is huge. The torque, the sound, the joy to drive........ PRICELESS! This guy will never, ever, EVER buy a gasser again! The nearly $4k premium is worth it, hands down! There are more tangibles than the calculator and the math can determine.

Last edited by DiNoto; 01-17-2017 at 12:34 PM.
DiNoto is offline  
post #90 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 10:51 PM
Senior Member
 
F8LZ71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiNoto View Post
I can comment on living with the V6 and the diesel because I have owned both. I bought a '15 with the V6 in November, 2014 and put about 33k miles on it. The engine was a nightmare. I bitched up a storm about the truck on these forums. After 36 cumulative days in the shop and never getting the performance and MPG drop problems fixed, I decided to cut my losses. GM refused to buy it back and a Lemon Law attorney wasn't confident that I had a case. I put in a dealer order for the Duramax and took delivery last February.

As bad as the V6 was, the Duramax has been the complete opposite. The truck has been fantastic through 23k miles (knock on wood!) and I consistently get over 575 miles per tank. As someone else stated, it is very pleasing only having to fuel up every 7 or 8 days. Before dumping my V6, my mileage had dropped to 16 mpg and I was gassing up twice per week. In California, diesel fuel is equal to or less than regular, so the savings with the huge mpg difference is huge. The torque, the sound, the joy to drive........ PRICELESS! This guy will never, ever, EVER buy a gasser again! The nearly $4k premium is worth it, hands down! There are more tangibles than the calculator and the math can determine.
In NorCal diesel is usually equal to or more than premium. :( Good post though!
DiNoto likes this.

2016 Canyon SLE CC LB All-Terrain 3.6L - RC 2" Kit | Goodyear Duratrac P265/70/17
2013 Chevy Volt

Instagram
F8LZ71 is offline  
post #91 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 11:14 PM
Senior Member
 
saytanicmechanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: South of Baahstan, Massachusetts
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Conway View Post
So there you have it. You are not saving any money with the diesel even after 200k miles, even given my generous ratings for MPG.
Dunno if this was already addressed in this thread. I read some of it but I'm not going over it line by line. :D

People who buy a diesel don't necessarily buy it for a cost savings over a gasoline powered vehicle. They (usually) buy it because either:

a) they want it for the higher torque because they're towing something.

or

b) they just want it. :D

BTW your calculation was missing something critical in it; the added cost of AdBlue over time. It's kinda hard to calculate what that will cost you since the price varies depending on your location and/or if you buy an adapter so you can get it at a truck stop that carries it cheaper than most parts stores do. Overall when you add that cost into everything else (whatever it may be. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but once you need to refill it every 10K miles I think), the cost between running a diesel version of our trucks compared to the gasser is close to the same in the long run.

In the end who really cares though? All that matters is if you're happy with your truck and it does what you want. I personally went with the V6 gasser because although I lug stuff around every now and then, I didn't need the extra grunt of the diesel since I don't really tow anything (yet) though the V6 should be more than enough for anything I could conceivably tow. That and the dealer had the exact truck I wanted in stock when I went there in the exact color scheme I wanted with the exact accessories I wanted too. Every time I get into it I must look like an idiot to other motorists because I smile from ear to ear driving it, and I can honestly say that this is the first vehicle that I've bought that I can say that about.

I'm sure there are a lot of diesel owners that feel that way too about theirs and I'm happy for them. We're only on this mud ball for God-knows how long; I say buy what makes you happy!

2016 GMC Canyon SLT 4x4 in Copper Red Metallic
Hellwig rear swaybar/Pop N Lock for the tailgate/Revolver X2 tonneau cover/Bed Lighting/Extra high amperage USB charging ports/GM Bed Mat/Tailgate brake & backup lighting/Fumoto valve/Line-X
saytanicmechanic is offline  
post #92 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 03:53 AM
Senior Member
 
yokev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Orange County, Southern Kalifornistan
Posts: 1,038
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastStarr68 View Post
Guess allot of folks want to be big rig drivers and this is how they get their fix.
Uh, no.
A lot of people can't afford multiple vehicles, i.e.a daily driver, and a trailer queen to take off-road, so they modify their one and only vehicle so it works in both worlds. Millions of people have been doing this since the first motor vehicles rolled off the assembly line(s) 100+ years ago, and there are entire industries built around it.
What I don't understand is people who criticize others because they're not the same as them.
Usually kids outgrow this kind of behavior as they get life experience and exposure to more and more people.
Ironically, I've seen more of this behavior on this forum, and it's being displayed by what we're lead to believe are 'mature' adults.
ssgjurista, Tucker and Tufelhundin like this.

2016 Colorado 2.8L D-max, Crew Cab, Long Bed, Z71, 4WD.
ZONE 5.5" Suspension Lift
Moto Metal 970 17x8.5"
Nitto Terra G-G2s, 295/70/17

Last edited by yokev; 01-19-2017 at 03:56 AM.
yokev is offline  
post #93 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 04:58 AM
Senior Member
 
JScottM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by GH1618 View Post
That system works well. You must not be old enough to know what the air was like before the EPA was created in the 1970s. Driving on a highway with trucks was awful. Nowadays, I don't even notice the exhaust from heavy trucks. It is rare that I see one that I want to avoid because of its exhaust.
70's not really. But I have been around long before cats on diesels. And yes they used to blow lots of smoke. My point was diesels are not the simple/nothing to break animals anymore...

Sent from the butt crack of California.
2016 Colorado 4x4 CC SB V6
AS level/lift 2.5" w/1" rear block, diff drop
275/70-17 Cooper AT3 on MotoMetal 970s
Scary, evil, black, warranty voiding catch can from the devil
JScottM is online now  
post #94 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 05:15 AM
Senior Member
 
JScottM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 1,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
- EPA test mileage is completed on 94 octane, non-ethanol fuel.
Is this true? you have got to be kidding?? right??!

Sent from the butt crack of California.
2016 Colorado 4x4 CC SB V6
AS level/lift 2.5" w/1" rear block, diff drop
275/70-17 Cooper AT3 on MotoMetal 970s
Scary, evil, black, warranty voiding catch can from the devil
JScottM is online now  
post #95 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 08:12 AM
Senior Member
 
BeastStarr68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Concord NC
Posts: 529
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by JScottM View Post
Is this true? you have got to be kidding?? right??!
I agree with you...this is not the truth.

2017 GMC Canyon All Terrain X Quick Silver Metallic
BeastStarr68 is offline  
post #96 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 09:39 AM
Senior Member
 
F8LZ71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by JScottM View Post
Is this true? you have got to be kidding?? right??!
Actual EPA testing does not use fuel with any ethanol.
https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/...y=P100IENB.PDF

Quote:
No, EPA’s test fuel does not currently contain any ethanol or other oxygenates. However, EPA
does account for the impact of low-level ethanol blends in our fuel economy estimates. Ethanol
has a lower energy density than gasoline—about 1/3 less energy per gallon. That means a car
operating on 10% ethanol would require about 3% more fuel to travel one mile than a car
operating on gasoline and thus have about 3% lower fuel economy. EPA currently reduces all
fuel economy test values by about 10% to account for ethanol in gasoline and other factors
such as wind, hills, and road conditions.
Later this decade, EPA is phasing in a requirement to change our federal emissions test
fuel to include 10% ethanol by volume. Information about this change is available at:
epa.gov/otaq/tier3.htm.
Interesting note on octane:
Quote:
A factoid: Automakers, EPA and the California Air Resources Board all get involved in emissions and mpg testing. EPA's certification fuel is indolene, a standardized test gasoline free of additives. One source cites an indolene MON of 87 and RON of 96.5, thus yielding a pump octane of 91.5; another, a pump octane of 92.9.
Premium Gasoline ? What Does Premium Fuel Do for Your Car?

2016 Canyon SLE CC LB All-Terrain 3.6L - RC 2" Kit | Goodyear Duratrac P265/70/17
2013 Chevy Volt

Instagram
F8LZ71 is offline  
post #97 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 09:53 AM
Senior Member
 
BeastStarr68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Concord NC
Posts: 529
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by yokev View Post
Uh, no.
A lot of people can't afford multiple vehicles, i.e.a daily driver, and a trailer queen to take off-road, so they modify their one and only vehicle so it works in both worlds. Millions of people have been doing this since the first motor vehicles rolled off the assembly line(s) 100+ years ago, and there are entire industries built around it.
What I don't understand is people who criticize others because they're not the same as them.
Usually kids outgrow this kind of behavior as they get life experience and exposure to more and more people.
Ironically, I've seen more of this behavior on this forum, and it's being displayed by what we're lead to believe are 'mature' adults.
Lighten up man...nobody was critical of anybody about what they do to their trucks. We are all different and like different things. It was said in jest. You sound like an overly sensitive millennial in this post. Do you need to go find your safe place??

2017 GMC Canyon All Terrain X Quick Silver Metallic
BeastStarr68 is offline  
post #98 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 12:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastStarr68 View Post
I agree with you...this is not the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JScottM View Post
Is this true? you have got to be kidding?? right??!


The fuel is called Indolene and it's reported Octane is reported to be between 92-94 octane. And all modern GM ECUs have 2 different timing/ fueling tables, one for high octane and one for low octane. More timing and leaner mixtures are more efficient, this is not debatable. No matter what you're measurement method shows. If you scan the car and it's running more timing, it's making more power and getting better economy.


The EPA literally just changed this year the mpg calculation to include and offset some ethanol content, even though they don't actually test with it. That's why the 17 V6/ 8sp is more efficient in the real world but shows identical EPA #'s to last year. Since there is no ethanol in diesel fuel the diesels were unaffected by this change.


Also, they don't test 4x4 actually, they just penalize it a %. Most diesels these days have the same aero as the 4x2 versions since they are the same height so really see very little real world change when operating in 2wd. But the EPA penalizes 4x4 from 2-4 mpg across the board. Real world it's more like 1 mpg on a small truck. They also don't test different wheel sizes and packages. So GM might get their number on a FS truck utilizing 17" wheels but then you buy the fancy 22s and get 3mpg less as a result.


I don't knock what the EPA does. The need to have a standard for comparison sakes and they do. I don't think they should round to whole numbers, and I'd rather see them test in an enclosed temperature controlled oval track instead of a dyno, but it's a thankless job and I think they do their best with reasonable cost limitations.


But I can tell you in the real world, you need to run Super-unleaded (tank after tank, 1 tank doesn't work because computers add back in timing slowly to be safe) to get optimum mpg in a gasser. And I'll also tell you that like for like for the average consumer, the diesels really get 35-40% better mpg than the gassers. And that's a bigger spread than the window stickers say and how these calculations are usually ran. In some cases it's way more of a spread than that. My wife's GC eco-D compared to the loaner GC Hemi we got. Her diesel was around 80% better mpg.

Current: 2009 Canyon CC I5. 170K miles. Best vehicle I've ever owned.
Eagerly awaiting 2018 Canyon Denali Diesel 4x4 CCLB
Suns_PSD is offline  
post #99 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 02:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Oakland
Posts: 239
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
... If you scan the car and it's running more timing, ...
What does "more timing" mean? More advanced spark?
GH1618 is offline  
post #100 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 03:34 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 7,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by GH1618 View Post
What does "more timing" mean? More advanced spark?
I wish I could MAKE more time. I could sure find a way to use it all up. Spent 8 hours round trip in the rain driving my truck to a funeral. Ain't the way I want to spend time in my truck, that is for sure.

I think you are correct as far as what @Suns_PSD was trying to say. Cut him some slack, he's breathed so many diesel fumes he can't think in terms of gasoline engines anymore.

2015 Canyon SLT, Copper Red, 2WD, CC, SB, V6, Tow, blk leather, factory spray liner, safety pkg, generic roll up bed cover.
CaryBosse is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chevy Colorado & GMC Canyon forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome