Ultimate delete DISCUSSION (not argument) - Chevy Colorado & GMC Canyon
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post #1 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
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Ultimate delete DISCUSSION (not argument)

I know this is talked about in several other threads from various angles, but I thought it would be nice to have a dedicated spot for discussion and education about deleting, now that there are a few members here that have done it, and others interested in it.

We all know that the system is required by federal EPA standards. We all know that modifying/altering/removing the system is prohibited under these federal laws. We all know that modifying/altering/removing the system will absolutely void any factory warranty as well. We get it.

Since we all know and understand these facts, it would be great if those who are against this type of modification would refrain from posting the obvious objections here, and leave this thread for those who accept the risks/consequences of this type of undertaking. Please?

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post #2 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, I'll start! I don't have a truck yet, but will be getting a ZR2 CCSB Duramax, and I intend to keep the truck for as long as it will run and stay together. Maybe even a little longer. I will have a Provent 200 in hand before my truck even arrives, and will install it as soon as I get the truck home and the engine bay is cool enough to work in.

I am very seriously considering working towards a full delete as early as I can accomplish it. As I understand it, there are various levels or stages of deleting, but would like some clarification from those who know. Below is what I think I know.

EGR delete
Can be done simply by unplugging the EGR valve, so it just remains closed, or by installing a "block off plate". I'm not sure, but I'm guessing the block off plate method is a true, full delete? And would also involve replumbing the EGR coolant hoses to bypass what is removed? Any method will require ECM tuning to avoid throwing codes.

DEF/DPF delete
My understanding is you can just delete from the downpipe back, and this will eliminate the DEF and DPF systems. Associated injection lines, sensors, and wiring can either be wrapped and tied up in place, or removed further back and capped off. You can also replace from the turbo back, but due to the modern hi-flo design of the cat, you really don't gain anything replacing the downpipe. This will all require ECM tuning to prevent codes, and ultimately the truck just shutting down.

Before doing a full delete, it is best to ensure a regeneration has just been done, or the filter status is near 0, as the tuning doesn't eliminate the system from the ECM, it just makes it think the DPF is perpetually clean, so it never commands a regen.

I'm not sure what the tune does to deal with the DEF part? The DEF system is responsive to NOx readings, correct? Is the ECM just fooled into thinking NOx readings are perfect so it never tries to activate the system, or is the system separate from the rest of the engine tuning parameters, and is just deactivated?

I have more questions, but I guess that's a start. Anxious to see how close my understanding is from what I've read so far.



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Last edited by KMW; 03-12-2017 at 07:06 PM.
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post #3 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:24 PM
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In the olden days, getting rid of emissions stuff was pretty easy. Just just unbolted it, plugged the appropriate vacuum lines, and threw that junk in the trash. Now everything is connected to the computer in one way or another. I suspect if you just unplug the EGR, you'd get an error code and the truck would go in to limp mode. I think the first - and biggest - hurdles will be reprogramming the ECU. Not only doing the reprogramming, but getting it past the EPA.

The DPF system probably doesn't hurt anything, and you don't lose any mileage from it. But you do have to feed it. And it does need to be cleaned or replaced eventually. I can live with that, but I'd rather not. Like a catalytic converter, I'd like to hollow that out and disconnect the rest.

The EGR, though is something I'd really like to get rid of. You don't need to be an engineer to know that pumping exhaust gases back into the engine can't be good for efficiency.
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post #4 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I realize the EGR will require ECM tuning. I don't think it is a big hurdle though, as it's been done. It's just a matter of getting the software or finding someone with it.

As far as getting it past the EPA, this would only come up if you live where testing is required.

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post #5 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:37 PM
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EGR and SCR/DEF work together to reduce NOX. There is no logic to only removing(or disabling if you prefer that term) the EGR as the SCR/DEF will try to over compensate leaving you at best using a ton of DEF and worst, check engine lights alerting you to a problem and possibly giving you the reduced speed alert. If you remove the SCR/DEF then the EGR is still only gonna do what it can do and since it doesn't care about anything down stream it's only dirtying your intake air charge with exhaust so no sense in leaving it. Whether or not you remove the EGR shouldn't matter if it's closed it's closed, only benefit to removal is, what more room in the engine bay?

The DPF is a separate unit. Apparently it's really not that restrictive but it is a waste of fuel to clean it out all the time and there's a ton of heat created to do so which wears component life, so that's why it gets ditched.


All need to be tuned out. So you don't get check engine lights. To my knowledge no one other than perhaps GDE (I believe they are using some very special and proprietary tools others are not so they may have more control of certain aspects) can actually stop the systems from running. What gets done is the errors from the sub systems not being able to function or tattletale on too much emissions are disabled...with no errors reported from them to the main system the engine operates normally.

You do not necessarily need to tune for "performance" to be delete tuned. However they are disabling the errors is separate from how they tune for performance so don't think you need to get one to have the other.
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post #6 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:54 PM
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Jason-the-heckler(hacklerjason) posted a relevant EGR thread a few days ago(heck, maybe a week, I dunno). IIRC it addressed new tables he asked for from EFI Live
New calibration definitions file for E98
He walks you through it
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post #7 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you! This is exactly the kind of info I was wanting to get in here.

So it's kind of an all or nothing thing then. Which I'm fine with. And I do realize "tuning out" the functions is separate from a performance tune. Same tools used, just working with different functions.

So, here's another question. If you deactivate the EGR and DEF functions in the ECM, would the DPF system still function normally? This is just a curiosity question, as I would not leave the DPF on.

Now, although it may not be all that restrictive, if you deactivate the DPF system, it will eventually become restrictive as it builds up with soot but is not regenerating, correct?

So, assuming you deactivate all systems, you will definitely want to replace at least from in front of the DPF, right? My understanding is there is a flanged bolted connection at the bottom of the downpipe, making this the logical point to replace from.

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post #8 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMW View Post
Thank you! This is exactly the kind of info I was wanting to get in here.

So it's kind of an all or nothing thing then. Which I'm fine with. And I do realize "tuning out" the functions is separate from a performance tune. Same tools used, just working with different functions.

So, here's another question. If you deactivate the EGR and DEF functions in the ECM, would the DPF system still function normally? This is just a curiosity question, as I would not leave the DPF on.
Yes this is just a soot trap to catch the "black stuff" and burn it up.

Quote:

Now, although it may not be all that restrictive, if you deactivate the DPF system, it will eventually become restrictive as it builds up with soot but is not regenerating, correct?
Yes if you deactive you must remove it because of that

Quote:
So, assuming you deactivate all systems, you will definitely want to replace at least from in front of the DPF, right? My understanding is there is a flanged bolted connection at the bottom of the downpipe, making this the logical point to replace from.

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You would want to replace at least from the before DPF back. Since it's the DPF that would get clogged. Nothing forward of the DPF would clog as all the normal, black crap always flows through that anyway so technically that could be kept.

As for where, yes it's all one giant piece from the downpipe back so it all needs to come out together anyway
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post #9 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yokev View Post
Jason-the-heckler(hacklerjason) posted a relevant EGR thread a few days ago(heck, maybe a week, I dunno). IIRC it addressed new tables he asked for from EFI Live
New calibration definitions file for E98
He walks you through it
Thanks! I missed that thread somehow. That was helpful in understanding what it's doing.

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post #10 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Well, it's sounding like this whole process is actually fairly easy. Seems the hardest part would be just the tuning.

1. Unplug EGR

2. Unplug all sensors/injectors post downpipe, tie up or remove per preference

3. Replace exhaust from downpipe back

4. Deactivate EGR, DEF, and DPF in ECU


If one bought a replacement ECU, and didn't cut out sensors and injectors, it could all be returned to stock with no signs it was ever done, correct?

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post #11 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KMW View Post
Well, it's sounding like this whole process is actually fairly easy. Seems the hardest part would be just the tuning.

1. Unplug EGR

2. Unplug all sensors/injectors post downpipe, tie up or remove per preference

3. Replace exhaust from downpipe back

4. Deactivate EGR, DEF, and DPF in ECU


If one bought a replacement ECU, and didn't cut out sensors and injectors, it could all be returned to stock with no signs it was ever done, correct?

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Probably not. Everything will go back just fine but even if you have an alternate ECU (assuming you want this so they don't know it was ever flashed) it will be evident that it's wrong to a trained eye.

If you flash the stock ECU back and forth youre worried about the flash counter increasing.

If you use an alternate ECU there will still be a flash count when you flash the VIN and mileage in. But there are drive time counters too and those would never show enough cycles based on the mileage you need to flash into it so it would be obvious there was a recent ECU change.

IMO and alternate ECU is a waste of money.
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post #12 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Ah! Ok. I was just curious on that part, as I've seen the alternate ECU thing mentioned in the aftermarket tunes arguments.

For myself, I would remove everything such that it could all be bolted back on, just in the event I ever got rid of the truck in the future. Seems it would be good to have that option.

So for the exhaust replacement; is there a good reason to replace the downpipe? Looking at the AFE site I see they offer both turbo back and downpipe back systems. And it seems of those deleted on here it's been done both ways.



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post #13 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by KMW View Post
So for the exhaust replacement; is there a good reason to replace the downpipe? Looking at the AFE site I see they offer both turbo back and downpipe back systems. And it seems of those deleted on here it's been done both ways.



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Sound mainly, maybe a bit of improved flow.

Personally I'm opting to not change the DP. Since it will be easier to go back to stock for a smog check if I need to. From speaking with Jason whos already done his he doesn't think it's much of a restriction. Keeping it will also keep the exhaust quieter if your into that kinda thing.

aFe also makes a stock DP replacement so if I want too later on I can do it but if you buy their full kit there is no flange on the DP so you cant add the stock stuff back on later without changing the DP back too.
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post #14 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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Ah! Good catch. I didn't notice the full one was not compatible with stock.

I think I would lean to the downpipe back setup myself as well. I'm not concerned with making it louder. Personally, I don't think a 4 cylinder in-line diesel really sounds all that cool, so quiet is just fine with me.

So cost wise, it looks like $555 fir the AFE delete system. Plus whatever it costs to get the tune part done. If you remove all the injection lines and sensors and wires, you would have a little expense in some fittings and plugs to cap things of, but that should be minimal. Not too bad!

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post #15 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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So, after all the hard parts and dirty work, what is the best way to disable everything in the ECU?

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post #16 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by KMW View Post
So, after all the hard parts and dirty work, what is the best way to disable everything in the ECU?

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Get a tune from your favorite flavor tuner.
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post #17 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:26 PM
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Ah! Good catch. I didn't notice the full one was not compatible with stock.

I think I would lean to the downpipe back setup myself as well. I'm not concerned with making it louder. Personally, I don't think a 4 cylinder in-line diesel really sounds all that cool, so quiet is just fine with me.

So cost wise, it looks like $555 fir the AFE delete system. Plus whatever it costs to get the tune part done. If you remove all the injection lines and sensors and wires, you would have a little expense in some fittings and plugs to cap things of, but that should be minimal. Not too bad!

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I'll bet you can do your delete faster than changing the spark plugs on a '02 TA, lol!

I bought the aFe dp back system with no muffler and no tip. Part number 49-44073NM. Shows on back order now. Got the dp from another vendor as IMO it was a sturdier design than the afe and came with new bolts and gaskets included. I am still waiting on motorops to email my delete DT tunes. They said they are close to being ready.


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post #18 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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I would need to get some kind of tuning device, correct? Like an Autocal?

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post #19 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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I'll bet you can do your delete faster than changing the spark plugs on a '02 TA, lol!

I bought the aFe dp back system with no muffler and no tip. Part number 49-44073NM. Shows on back order now. Got the dp from another vendor as IMO it was a sturdier design than the afe and came with new bolts and gaskets included. I am still waiting on motorops to email my delete DT tunes. They said they are close to being ready.


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What are you using for the tuning? And are you doing a performance tune at the same time, or just the delete settings?

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post #20 of 776 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:35 PM
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What are you using for the tuning? And are you doing a performance tune at the same time, or just the delete settings?

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I already have the duramax tuner ecm and tcm tunes. DT will not do delete tunes but they referred me to motorops.ca. They are doing the delete tunes using the DT dsp4 tuning. They are still working on their deletes.


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